Driven points for flash tools - MillTurn

Verifun · 2012-06-15 01:03:28

Hi,

It would be great if we could have a simple way to define flash tools for machines where you control the spindle orientation angle in the CNC's tool manager and not in the NC program.

Example:

In a WFL MillTurn (Sinumerik 840D) you pass the tool number, the B axis angle, the spindle orientation and the driven point number in a single command (They have a tool change cycle called "TLCH1" - It's a dedicated subroutine to handle tool changes)

In Sinumeriks/WFLs, you pass all these parameters in the NC program - In the tool offset table all you need to define is the driven points (D numbers), but not the SPOS angle associated to each driven point because the CNC control can track the new location of the driven point when rotate the tool around the milling spindle axis (Like when you need to use a flashed or multi-tasking tool)

So let's suppose we have this scenario:

Tool ID: T01
B axis angle: -45 degrees
Spindle orientation (SPOS): 0 degrees for a normal orientation and 180 degrees for a flashed tool.
D number (Driven point number): 2
...
Nxxx TLCH1("T01",-45,0,2)
...
Let's suppose we want to flash it:

Nxxx TLCH1("T01",-45,0,2)
blablabla
blablabla
blablabla
Nxxx TLCH1("T01",-45,180,2) - B axis angle in the same position but the tool is now Flashed...
...

The control does everything for you so you don't need a separate drive point when you flash the tool... use the same and the control tracks the location of the tip whenever you change the B axis angle or rotate the tool around the spindle axis...

Bottom line in the method above: You need only one tool model in Vericut's tool manager as the CNC control in Vericut can track the tip location just like the real machine does...

Now let's go to Mazak Matrix and the "smart" way the japaneses have done it...

The "geniuses" made the control in a way that if you have a turning tool and you want to flash it, you first need to go to the tool table and create 2 driven points for the tool, and then associate a spindle orientation angle to each, directly on the tool offset tables. So when you clal that driven point in a NC program, the machine will then rotate the spindle in the orientation you defined...

This is really "smart" as why you can make it easier if you can complicate it? So in a Mazak Integrex, if you want to use a flash tool, you need 2 distinct driven points even if you don't need it... even if you could use just one if the control could track the current one once the spindle orientation is changed...

So this is how the same code looks like in a Mazak: :cry:

T01.01 M6 - Normal orientation - Driven point 1
blablabla
blablabla
blablabla
T01.02 M6 - Flashed orientation... - In the tool offset table you set the spindle angle to be 180 degrees for the driven point 2

What happens in the Vericut Tool Manager is that you need to create two instances of the tool "T01" and rotate the second instance of the tool model 180 degrees... if you have a multitasking tool, with let's say, 3 cutting edges, then you need at least 3 different models with the same ID in Vericut... but Vericut does not allow multiple tools with the same IDs... nor should it... it does not make sense...

Bottom line: Mazaks controls are poorly thought to MillTurn IMHO and you need to create several tool models for the same tool ID in Vericut or you have to workaround this in the software because Mazak didn't think enough in an elegant solution like in German controls...

To CGTech: What if you make the life of Mazak MillTurn guys easier and allow us to define the spindle angles for driven points in Vericut's tool manager so the software could behave like the machine using just one tool model... :mrgreen:

Most high/mid-end CAM systems out there are allowing flash tools now... but unfortunately I was unable to spot a decent solution on Vericut tool manager for this...

Thanks,

ThomasF · 2012-07-31 11:16:36

Hi Daniel,

What about using additional Driven Points and Cutter compensation values for the angle definition?

I use them for various definitions like cutting direction... on our WFL. If you look at the attached picture, I use DP 1001 (with a cutter compensation value 3) as cutting direction definition for DP 1, DP 1002 for DP 2. In a subroutine I just call D=(DNO+1000) to activate the according driven point, get the CDC-Value by a Variable defined with SetDynamicVars... and can react on this value.

Regards,
Thomas

PS: WFL is Austrian, not German :wink:

Verifun · 2012-07-31 12:38:37

Thomas, thanks for your inputs...

What about using additional Driven Points and Cutter compensation values for the angle definition?

I don't like this workaround... it's too limited and V7.2 can do it without any of these workarounds... I think somewhen in the past this was the way to go... not now anymore...

Besides, I don't agree the programmer must pay this bill... for every angle the tool manager would have to have an entry, and WFL only deals with up to 4 driven points... it's easy to reach the limits...

But thanks for your tip...

PS: WFL is Austrian, not German

You're right. I was talking about Siemens (SInumerik)...

Cheers,

Daniel

Verifun · 2012-08-01 03:06:38

ThomasF wrote:

Hi Daniel,
What about using additional Driven Points and Cutter compensation values for the angle definition?
I use them for various definitions like cutting direction... on our WFL. If you look at the attached picture, I use DP 1001 (with a cutter compensation value 3) as cutting direction definition for DP 1, DP 1002 for DP 2. In a subroutine I just call D=(DNO+1000) to activate the according driven point, get the CDC-Value by a Variable defined with SetDynamicVars... and can react on this value.
Regards,
Thomas
offset number...
PS: WFL is Austrian, not German :wink:

Thomas,

In fact in the WFLs we don't need workarounds in Vericut for most of tool positioning issues... the problem I described in this post is related to Mazaks where the spindle (SPOS) angle is tied to the offset number...

In WFLs, we can orient the tool at any B axis angle (B1) and any spindle angle (S3) using the same D number... not true with Mazaks...

Cheers to German/Austrian superiority in CNC controls... :wink:

Best,

ThomasF · 2012-08-02 04:42:28

Hi Daniel,

Sounds good that 7.2 can handle such things.

How do you handle the cutting position calculations from the WFL machines? The defnition has to be the value for B1=0Â° and S3=0Â°, and the real position is calculated according to the current B1- and S3-Position. I wasn't able to simulate this correctly without using this workaround.

Regards,
Thomas

Verifun · 2012-08-04 13:55:47

Thomas,

We engaged seriously in Vericut for our WFLs only in the last 5 months and we hired CGTech to create our machines for us due to the high level of complexity.

I think because of this, they are using a very recent control file and the latest features in Vericut... what I can tell you is that 7.1.6 is also able to do a lot but 7.2 apparently fixed the problems we had with cutter compensation and different B axis angles / Flashed orientations...

I can't tell ya how they do it exactly, but I garantee you it works now without heavy workarounds... in fact we don't have any so far, it's all about the control file and some tailor made sub-rotines they use...

HTH

Daniel

ThomasF · 2012-08-05 07:47:25

Hi Daniel,

OK, in that case I'll continue using my current workaround until 7.2 is released and contact my CGTech-Support then to update our control files.

Regards,
Thomas

PS:

Vericut 7.1.6 / Vericut 7.2 Beta / Pro|NC Wildfire 5.0 / Creo|NC 2.0 / TopSolid 2012 / TopSolid V7 / WFL CrashGuard Studio

That seems to me like the perfect environment for programming CNC-Machines :mrgreen:

Verifun · 2012-08-05 15:09:25

ThomasF wrote:

Hi Daniel,
PS:
Vericut 7.1.6 / Vericut 7.2 Beta / Pro|NC Wildfire 5.0 / Creo|NC 2.0 / TopSolid 2012 / TopSolid V7 / WFL CrashGuard Studio
That seems to me like the perfect environment for programming CNC-Machines :mrgreen:

I can't complain. We need now to continue with the honing of all these tools... this is the hardest part... :mrgreen:

VERICUT Users' Forum

#1 2012-06-15 01:03:28

Driven points for flash tools - MillTurn

#2 2012-07-31 11:16:36

Re: Driven points for flash tools - MillTurn

#3 2012-07-31 12:38:37

Re: Driven points for flash tools - MillTurn

#4 2012-08-01 03:06:38

Re: Driven points for flash tools - MillTurn

#5 2012-08-02 04:42:28

Re: Driven points for flash tools - MillTurn

#6 2012-08-04 13:55:47

Re: Driven points for flash tools - MillTurn

#7 2012-08-05 07:47:25

Re: Driven points for flash tools - MillTurn

#8 2012-08-05 15:09:25

Re: Driven points for flash tools - MillTurn

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